tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post3320798152014718678..comments2023-07-15T08:04:55.400-07:00Comments on Michelle's Musings: Gay Rights vs. Parental RightsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-59084719956345900642007-03-15T05:47:00.000-07:002007-03-15T05:47:00.000-07:00It concerns me that we have moved so far away....I...It concerns me that we have moved so far away....<br><br>I think we should take schools back to teaching reading writing and arithmetic and leave most everything else to the parents. I am afraid this may be the only solution.Eric Nielsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00530011180028252442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-6116956032238010482007-03-15T06:32:00.000-07:002007-03-15T06:32:00.000-07:00Good post. I think that a distinction needs to be...Good post. I think that a distinction needs to be made about what "rights" are. Rights are individual in nature, and groups are not inherently given rights. The Boy Scouts don't have any "rights", Greenpeace doesn't have any "rights", nor does any other group of two or more people.<br><br>So when we talk about "gay rights", I think it should be understood that pro-gay activists are talking about "gay marriage rights", since homosexual individuals by and large have as many rights as the rest of us individuals. Where there is bigotry and discrimination towards the individual, such should be remedied, but no group (including a pair of homosexuals) inherently has any "rights", other than those which the higher institution (government) sees fit to bestow.<br><br>I'm always amazed at the saturated hypocrisy that is everywhere prevalent among these activists. They cry out for tolerance when they do not render the same for those with opposing views. Anybody who speaks out against their agenda is labeled as a hatemongering bigot. What ludicrousy! Should they wish to advance their cause they should allow me the same privilege.Connorhttp://www.connorboyack.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-37656917804693910152007-03-15T13:00:00.000-07:002007-03-15T13:00:00.000-07:00Eric,I think you may be right about "the only...Eric,<br>I think you may be right about "the only solution." Somehow I doubt that will happen. <br><br>Connor, I think that pro-gay activists are seeking more than just marriage rights, or they wouldn't be making a fuss about people's thinking and speech as well, or trying to indoctrinate children on the supposed normalcy and acceptable nature of homosexuality. This is part of the reason I want to write about this...because my concern goes beyond just protecting marriage, although that is a concern.m_and_mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00552368137212513094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-88034831006075691602007-03-15T13:57:00.000-07:002007-03-15T13:57:00.000-07:00M & M,I agree that some in the gay rights move...M & M,<br><br>I agree that some in the gay rights movement advocate various forms of social re-education above and beyond the recognized right to marry.<br><br>However, I think that certain quasi-religious groups have learned how to make a profit by demonizing minority activists in our country - your links to Focus on the Family and the Concerned Mothers groups as sources for news stories about the freshman contract incident are telling. Do you have any mainstream news links for this story?DCLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-44324319824833500072007-03-15T14:08:00.000-07:002007-03-15T14:08:00.000-07:00lief,This is a fair question and critique. One of ...lief,<br>This is a fair question and critique. One of the difficulties surrounding this issue is that it's often hard to get objective information -- on either side. (The first story is one that the GLBT community has talked about as well, of course from the point of view that it was a "victory" -- so we could run into trouble either way, ya know?)<br><br>What would you consider a "mainstream" source, and how much information about this issue do you really think we can get from such sources? It seems to me that a lot of information surrounding this issue often comes from more biased sources. Thoughts?m_and_mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00552368137212513094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-6683731688621291582007-03-15T14:14:00.000-07:002007-03-15T14:14:00.000-07:00Also, when you say the fact that I cited the sourc...Also, when you say the fact that I cited the sources I did was "telling" what do you mean to say/imply?m_and_mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00552368137212513094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-43844805203616941952007-03-15T14:28:00.000-07:002007-03-15T14:28:00.000-07:00M & M,I guess I could google the story, but I ...M & M,<br><br>I guess I could google the story, but I was trying to point out that groups like Focus on the Family, in my mind, sensationalize stories because 1) its profitable, and 2) the only consumers of these stories are like minded individuals.<br><br>For starters on a conservative-biased note - how about the Washington Times, Fox News, or the Wall Street Journal? If illegal contracts of secrecy were really forced on freshman students, I would bet that the local Chicago news would have picked it up.<br><br>Given that every news source is potentially biased I think it is useful to look at a story from a variety of sources to triangulate the truth of the matter rather than look to one source just because it confirms what I am predisposed to believe.DCLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-25617116539081353232007-03-15T14:51:00.000-07:002007-03-15T14:51:00.000-07:00Michelle,Since you indicate that your interest in ...Michelle,<br><br>Since you indicate that your interest in this matter goes beyond marriage to child indoctrination, perhaps you'd be interested in reading <a href="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54708" rel="nofollow">this article</a> and <a href="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54683" rel="nofollow">this one</a> as well.<br><br>Eek.Connorhttp://www.connorboyack.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-91249286344446697302007-03-15T15:21:00.000-07:002007-03-15T15:21:00.000-07:00Lief,Thanks for your response. I agree that we nee...Lief,<br>Thanks for your response. I agree that we need to be careful about just jumping on any bandwagon just because we read something (I'm obviously restating what you are saying with my own thoughts...hope that is not too far off). <br><br>The challenge I see, though, is that sometimes we only get news about tough issues from those who care about them. I want to be careful about looking to special groups too much and I don't always agree with the hype that surrounds some of the issues these groups bring out, but sometimes, it's hard to get information about things that I think are relevant elsewhere. A liberal-sided paper probably wouldn't care much about finding out what a freshman class was teaching. It was because some conservative groups were concerned that the information was discovered. After all, they were trying to keep things secret. Groups that want homosexuality taught in the schools aren't going to care about exposing it. And in today's world, we rarely get media coverage without some sort of bias, ya know? Again, I totally see your point, but I'm not always sure we can get all our information without some sort of bias. <br><br>All of that said, though, this is a really important issue to raise and one I was thinking about even as I wrote. So thanks for bringing it up.m_and_mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00552368137212513094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-6330916557406047872007-03-19T00:12:00.000-07:002007-03-19T00:12:00.000-07:00Thanks for the link RoAnn!Thanks for the link RoAnn!m_and_mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00552368137212513094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-58043654618825961702007-03-27T18:36:00.000-07:002007-03-27T18:36:00.000-07:00m&mI wholeheartedly agree with you. Schools ar...m&m<br><br>I wholeheartedly agree with you. Schools are just in far too strong a position, as are judges and lawyers.<br><br>My children were constantly being shown M rated movies at primary school (I believe you use the term "elementary school"). Teachers are above the law, in practice.Doug Towershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17119162546723347214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-40624469755634214772007-07-30T20:06:00.000-07:002007-07-30T20:06:00.000-07:00First off, even as a lesbian, I've always been...First off, even as a lesbian, I've always been uncomfortable with the pamphlets given to people about homosexuality. In what I believe is a sincere intent to help keep gay kids safe, they end up asserting many things that I don't think we really know. I don't really know that I could be confident, for example, in answering the questions: What does it mean to be gay?, How can you tell if you're gay? etc. To me, those questions are way too complicated to be summed up quickly on a pamphlet. And not allowing parents to come, seems a little bizarre, but I could imagine being afraid that several parents with strong feelings could lead to the meeting getting out of hand, hurtful, even violent.<br><br>Still, I wonder how often that type of thing really happens. I also think a good portion of what was going on was not "teaching homosexuality" but rather a few gay people telling their stories in an attempt to promote tolerance and nonviolence. And they might be making kids sign a contract in order to protect the public anonymity of people who put themselves in a vulnerable position by coming out.<br><br>Still, I understand being wary of a "gay agenda" to teach kids that homosexuality is okay, if you believe otherwise. Let's understand that most gay people don't think, "Hey, let's secretly tell kids to be gay!" Mostly, gay people's agenda consists of wanting same-sex marriage and promoting social acceptance of gay people so that we won't be socially, physically, psychologically, and economically hurt.<br><br>I'm sure some gay people have taken it too far, just as some conservatives take their cause too far, but I think most of us (gays, liberals, and conservatives) can be reasonable. I think that most of us can agree that we wouldn't want children to not be able to discuss the school days' events with their parents, and I think most of us can agree that hate crime legislation for gay hate crimes is a good idea. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, my "gay agenda" would be to have schools include in their occasional diversity presentations the idea that, no matter our religious beliefs, we should not persecute individuals for their apparent or actual sexual orientation. We might also mention that as far as we can tell scientifically, homosexuality isn't a choice. That could lead to a great discussion on nature versus nurture for the kids.<br><br>m&m, it seems to me that all the arguments you present begin with the belief that homosexuality is wrong and detrimental to society and individuals. Are there reasons besides your religious beliefs that you think this though? In case that didn't make sense, you said in another forum that you had reasons other than your religious beliefs to oppose gay marriage (thus still allowing for the separation of church and state). The reasons you've stated here though are all only problems if homosexuality is actually wrong.<br><br>I guess every generation goes through this process of some people thinking we're on a slippery slope if we allow this one more thing and other people thinking the former are using the same rhetoric to oppose gay rights as we did for black rights for so long and with the same negative effects. I come down on the side of not thinking it's really possible to be 100% sure which is the case.Ariellehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13090865833776328682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-38282305328697897142007-07-30T21:24:00.000-07:002007-07-30T21:24:00.000-07:00BTW, Arielle, I realize that hate crimes legislati...BTW, Arielle, I realize that hate crimes legislation itself won't be about simply talking about one's viewpoint, but I still think, given what I have read with what little experience we have with this issue, that there is the potential for that to happen. Like I said, there are people already being punished, perhaps not legally, but personally and professionally, for having a viewpoint that isn't consistent with the gay rights movement. Tolerance, if it is to have value, MUST go both ways. So often, though, it doesn't.<br><br>In fact, that is yet another concern I have with this issue. We already see a society seeking to remove God from everything, and by so doing, it is removing the rights of people who believe in Him to be public about that belief. The law can't only protect one side of the coin.<br><br>Also, I'm still not convinced about this "gay marriage is a civil right" thing. The discussion elsewhere seems to indicate that that is not all clear-cut. If marriage is a civil right, we have to define what marriage means, and that is indeed what the whole issue becomes about. If there is a difference in point of view about what that should mean, the voice of the people shoudl determine it. So far, it's mostly been small groups of judges making decisions that might support gay marriage, contrary to the voice of the people. Not exactly the way I think things are supposed to work. <br><br>Yet another concern about this issue.<br><br>(Don't know if any of these things are helping....)m_and_mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00552368137212513094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-44652841000137400692007-07-30T21:32:00.000-07:002007-07-30T21:32:00.000-07:00Arielle,Now you might be sorry that you asked, but...Arielle,<br>Now you might be sorry that you asked, but since this is all on my mind now tonite, perhaps this link will also explain and repeat some of my concerns.<br><br>http://judiciary.senate.gov/testimony.cfm?id=1641&wit_id=4717m_and_mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00552368137212513094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-58499814631383477622007-07-31T13:12:00.000-07:002007-07-31T13:12:00.000-07:00I don't know who's making decisions like t...I don't know who's making decisions like the one to keep parents from knowing what their children are being taught. I suppose it could be the HRC or something. I agree that some of the leaders of gay groups tend to want to plod on with a vigor that some of society doesn't feel is acceptable. To them, the issue is as clear cut as racial rights, and they act accordingly. I don't always know what's right, but I don't think it's a necessary consequence of gay marriage that kids would be taught things behind their parents backs. To me, that sounds like it might be coming from some problematic leadership. Apparently I'm just going to have to go and take over whoever controls the gay agenda so we can work out some compromises.<br><br>Yeah and as I was raised a Mormon, I understand feeling persecuted in some ways for my beliefs, especially as I was a fairly vocal kid, so I care about religious tolerance just as I do gay tolerance. But you have to admit that at this point gay kids are in more serious danger of being seriously attacked than a kid who says he believes homosexuality is wrong. In their rush to be PC, some schools probably are being overzealous in their punishment of kids who express opinions, and that's not cool. I would've raised hell at my school had I ever gotten in trouble for just expressing a religious view.<br><br>So I guess my point is that I wish we could all just be reasonable about these things, but humans are making mistakes on both sides even when they have good intentions. I really am going to have to work my way up through the gay movement so that I can try and fix things and make them as acceptable as possible for everyone. Maybe I'm a gay Mormon for that purpose :)<br><br>Oh and I don't know about technical judicial crap about what is and isn't a right. I think we'd be better off leaving marriage to churches and contracts to the state. But again, the thing about the people voting and the judges issue comes back to the analogy about civil rights for blacks. Left as a vote to the people, black people in many states wouldn't have gotten a lot of the rights and protection they have now. Gay people hope for the nat'l government's help and protection from the majority just as black people did.<br><br>So anyway, let's say I got to control "the gay agenda" and wouldn't allow any of this secrecy from parents business or punishment for expressing religious views on homosexuality, what would be the non-religious problem with gay marriage at that point?Ariellehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13090865833776328682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-62897485548169320512007-07-31T14:39:00.000-07:002007-07-31T14:39:00.000-07:00Arielle,Like I said, I'm organizing my thought...Arielle,<br>Like I said, I'm organizing my thoughts more on this. But in a sense, your hypothetical is in my mind very possibly impossible. I respect your desire to tone down the gay activist agenda. Unfortunately, I just don't see that happening. By the time you might get to do anything, I suspect it might be too late. The concern I have is that already, these kinds of things are happening, and that's without a lot of legal backing for the gay activism that has begun. You asked for non-religious reasons, and these are some of them, not based just on my religious beliefs, but on what I believe are my rights.<br><br>But still, I hope to get to your question.m_and_mhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00552368137212513094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-48266591643128359912007-09-06T16:33:00.000-07:002007-09-06T16:33:00.000-07:00m&m,I'm curious to know more about the sto...m&m,<br><br>I'm curious to know more about the stories of your loved ones who are homosexual. Also, based on your beliefs and opinions on this matter, what do you teach your children about homosexuality? Is it something that is discussed at all? Do they have interactions with your loved ones who are homosexual? I'm curious what that all looks like.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-56584101967587141502009-08-17T14:22:49.614-07:002009-08-17T14:22:49.614-07:00This site is wonderful and rare. A discussion foru...This site is wonderful and rare. A discussion forum with well reasoned, respectful views from both sides. Thanks M&M. <br>Doug, you are obviously Australian, as am I. The equivalent US rating for an M rated movie is PG13. And yes, I agree it is not good to be showing them to primary (elementary school) children.<br>As for the topic at hand, I have children to take to school, but hope to post something later today.<br>Two thoughts though, are Gay Marriage Rights and/or the LGBT movement religious or secular topics?<br>And what defines 'wrong' when it comes to homosexuality? Or is the question perhaps is the practice of homosexuality detrimental to the individual, to the family, to society?Lisa LeMoynenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-953110428551077275.post-4511098963701355852009-08-18T21:30:50.224-07:002009-08-18T21:30:50.224-07:00I am currently seeking to educate myself better on...I am currently seeking to educate myself better on the issues surrounding homosexuality, religion and our society (I mean greater democratic western society, I don't live in the US)<br><br>I don't have time for a big post and also have no idea how old this thread is or if anyone is still reading it. So here's my thoughts on one of the issues discussed. <br><br>Civil rights in Massachusetts:<br><br>Homosexuality, LGBT marriage rights and religion have become issues entwined in recent years. Because of differing human beliefs and opinions they have been hotly and emotionally contested. This is part of human nature and one of the great things in democratic western society. However it does mean that somethings can become clouded by passionate, emotional argument.<br><br>Lets us put aside all questions of religion and LGBT rights for a moment and cut to the heart of the issue. Are parental and civil rights being violated in Massachusetts?<br><br>Excerpt from UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT<br>DISTRICT OF MASSACHUSETTS<br>DAVID PARKER, ET AL. vs WILLIAM HURLEY, ET AL.<br><br>"They [David Parker, et al.] also contend that the defendants have violated the laws of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, including the statute that requires that parents be given notice and an opportunity to exempt their children from any curriculum that "primarily involves human sexual education or human sexuality issues." M.G.L. c. 71, §32A." http://pacer.mad.uscourts.gov/dc/cgi-bin/recentops.pl?filename=wolf/pdf/parker%20opinion%20mlw.pdf pg3.<br><br>Does Massachusetts state law provide that parents be given notice and an opportunity to exempt their children from any curriculum that primarily involves human sexual education or human sexuality issues? <br>- Yes.<br><br>Does discussion or education on homosexuality primarily involve human sexual education or human sexuality issues?<br>- Yes.<br><br>Were the parents informed or given a chance to exempt their children?<br>- No.<br><br>Was the law violated?<br>- Yes.<br><br>So are parental and civil rights (granted under this law) being violated in Massachusetts?<br>- Yes. <br><br>Whether or not the defendants had the right to privately contest the violation of that law does not change that it was violated. Since rights are attached to the laws that govern them, if the law was violated so were their rights. That definitively settles the issue for me.Lisa LeMoynenoreply@blogger.com